HN Reader

How Japanese black companies oppress workers (2014)

179

230

> "I can't quit the job. If I say I'm going to quit, I'll be threatened that I will have to pay damages for quitting."

Interestingly, this is actually possible under Japanese law/legal precedent. If an employee, for example, decides to put in notice and then half-ass their job until their departure date, a company could actually sue the employee and win.

Other Japan-labor-law fun fact: if you are a contract worker, it is literally illegal for you to quit prior to your contract expiry date. Hope you like that job you signed onto!

Obligatory disclaimer: IANAL

1 year agoby infotainment

I still remember the day of the explosion down the road from our office in Nagoya. The worker had been driven to such desperation and rage that he sealed himself off in the boss's office after dousing everything (including himself) in gasoline.

The cops were there, trying to talk him down, but the fumes had reached such a concentration that the next time the aircon kicked in, the place exploded.

The worker exploitation in Japan is BAD, and has been for decades. When you employ someone, you don't technically own them, but culturally you absolutely do.

1 year agoby kstenerud

Funny seeing a post about these as that's what I was recently reminded of when reading this post:

https://x.com/DOGE/status/1857076831104434289

("80+ hours per week" ... what kind of a psycho even writes this down and puts it out there as if it was normal in any way...)

1 year agoby Culonavirus

Please add [2014].

It's an interesting read, but temporal context is important. The world has been through a lot. Even if we talk only about Japan, there has been

- COVID

- Tokyo 2020 Olympics

- 3 prime ministers leaving their posts

- Shinzo Abe getting shot

1 year agoby k_sze

On the point of Japanese companies shedding staff .. There is a friendly, win-win way to move skilled staff out of your company, but my impression is it's not widely known nor often occur.

When a company finds that a particular staff member "isn't a good fit for the company" they will add this person to an informal list that is traded through back-channels with other companies. At some future time such personnel might be directly approached by headhunters on behalf of inquiring companies. Of course the current employer overlooks the poaching activity, they want the member gone. The only clue the office gets is one day out of the blue that member shows up to work wearing full interview attire, and might soon after announce that they are moving on.

For the managerial tier and above, they frequently socialize and will have a sense of when it is time to move on, in accordance with societal expectations. Given that the managerial profession comprises a relatively smaller group in Japan, they can expect to land their next gig soon enough.

As for the rest, I've heard of plenty of tactics used to induce (eventual) voluntary departure, "black" or otherwise. I don't advocate for them myself, but the culture, market, and law is what it is..

1 year agoby papaver-somnamb

this is mostly fantastical nonsense. I go home at 6pm everyday. go outside at 6pm and you will see businesspeople everywhere also on the commute home.

also it is nearly impossible to fire anyone in Japan for anything

1 year agoby Daz1

As someone living in Japan (and working for a mostly reasonable Japanese-owned and operated company), I'm often a bit annoyed by the people confidently spouting second-hand Reddit knowledge that all Japanese workers are in situations like this (e.g. returning home from work at midnight, unable to quit, etc). If every company was a black company, they probably wouldn't have a word for it!

That said, it is far more common to work overtime here than in my home country and I'm puzzled by how many Japanese people I encounter who are like "Yeah working too much overtime is bad and people shouldn't have to do it. I don't like having to work overtime. Also I work multiple hours of overtime every day and have no plans to do anything to change that, it is what it is." When I inquire further, it doesn't seem like they CAN'T change jobs, more like inertia and passivity (and perhaps a sense that it's too hard/unlikely to find a significantly better situation). Going through the job search and interviewing process again is apparently a higher immediate mental barrier than the annoyance of working overtime every day.

1 year agoby autumnstwilight

I worked at a onsen for a month in 2004. I was an intern learning Japanese so they were easy on me, but the ladies working there were doing 6.30am to 9.30pm, every day (including weekends), no pause. The hotel owned the apartments they lived in, and everything in the town was run by onsens, so there was no "job market" really to play. I don't know how much they were paid, but it didn't seem like they were rolling in it. Many of them were complaining about their husbands not working, drinking etc., so I can only imagine that at 9.30pm, they would actually take care of everything in their homes as well. One day, one of them just collapsed, and she was given a day off.

Yet, the workers seemed to accept this as "business as usual" and were generally good-spirited. They were totally screwed over by management, cause the hotel was really expensive, and they knew they were being taken advantage of. But such is the effect of culture on people.

Anyways, all this to say that I think that pretty much every job in Japan would be seen as the darkest shade of black in the West. And I can't imagine how awful the conditions must be for the blacker companies in Japan.

1 year agoby d--b

Needs a (2014). This was from almost a decade ago.

1 year agoby wenc

> the Labor Ministry began a crackdown on black companies, too

"We will definitely discuss the formation a task force to examine the ramifications of potentially instituting regulations in the future"

1 year agoby commandlinefan

“Black Corporations” Still Common in Japan

https://www.nippon.com/en/japan-data/h01840/

1 year agoby rawgabbit

There are multiple companies in Japan that specialize in quitting people’s jobs by proxy. I assume it helps because you can’t illegally threaten a person through a witness.

https://soranews24.com/2024/11/13/japanese-job-quitting-serv...

1 year agoby labster

> The Benesse Group has constantly pursued “Benesse (well-being)” and focused on “people” to support the realization of their dreams and ideals. [0]

This is the black company in the third spot. Curious.

[0] https://www.benesse.co.jp/brand/en/about/

1 year agoby MrBuddyCasino

Why don't they just emigrate? Work culture seems to be better just about everywhere and on top of that, salaries in Japan are shit, and anyone with half the Japanese work ethics will be a dream employee in U.S. or let alone Europe which is full of entitled, lazy slackers.

1 year agoby anovikov

> "He even received a personal letter from the evil president in his paycheck envelope saying: "you should reflect on your sales this month by killing yourself.""

This is illegal in some countries and will put one in jail.

1 year agoby hulitu

A follow-up analysis 10 years later would be really interesting

1 year agoby fexed

Sounds like every ‘normal’ job in Shenzhen, China

1 year agoby thenthenthen

Now do "How American companies oppress workers and run lives". We got wage theft, abuse, sexual harassment, at will firings, wage slavery, and all sorts of fucked up healthcare forcing people to work here. Edit: to say nothing of our prison slave labor here.

1 year agoby bcdtttt

this article was a bit annoying - several paragraphs of filler background, then a video from some movie - then a list of bad companies

... and then finally at the end you get told what exactly black companies are -list of common characteristics of black companies. Made for an irritating read

1 year agoby vivekd

Anti-communism at it's best.

1 year agoby gverrilla

The term "black", etimologicaly speaking, is racist and should not be used. Japanese culture seems also to be racist, so not a surprise. Instead of "black companies", kindly use "evil companies" instead.

1 year agoby 2112syrinx