HN Reader

(before you jump into discussion, remember that this only about these two individuals)

ICC and the prosecutor are on very solid ground here.

The prosecutor asked opinions from a impartial panel of experts in international law. The panel included people like Theodor Meron (former Legal adviser for the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs), Helene Kennedy, Adrian Fulford.

Netanyahu and Yoav Gallant provided plenty of evidence of the intent. Did they really think that when they talk Hebrew to their audience, rest of the world does not hear them. Case like this would be harder to prosecute without evidence of intent.

For context, this is only possible because the state of Palestine pushed hard and persisted for years to become an ICC member and thus give the ICC jurisdiction over crimes committed on Palestinian territory, whether by Israel or by Palestinian factions. The USA is still mad at them for doing it.

The full account is worth reading, it includes considerations by the various resistance factions that they’d also be subject to ICC jurisdiction and realized threats of punitive measures by the USA and Israel if they continued to push for ICC membership: https://palepedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court%27s_...

"The Chamber therefore found reasonable grounds to believe that Mr Netanyahu and Mr Gallant bear criminal responsibility for the war crime of starvation as a method of warfare."

Whats perhaps interesting to note is that this charge was made for "just" 41 [1] confirmed starvation deaths among a population of 2,141,643 people [2].

Of course every death caused by intentional starvation is a severe crime and must be punished, but in the context of the victim numbers that most past crimes against humanity have had, it sets a relatively low new bar.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip_famine

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

> The Chamber also noted that decisions allowing or increasing humanitarian assistance into Gaza were often conditional. They were not made to fulfil Israel’s obligations under international humanitarian law or to ensure that the civilian population in Gaza would be adequately supplied with goods in need. In fact, they were a response to the pressure of the international community or requests by the United States of America. In any event, the increases in humanitarian assistance were not sufficient to improve the population’s access to essential goods.

I don't understand why this would matter. Does it matter the rationale for increasing aid? I would think the only thing that should matter would be weather the aid was sufficient or not. (I appreciate in the end icc pretrial felt it wasn't enough , but i think that is the only thing that should matter)

Like if someone is accused of murder, but doesn't because a friend told them not to, we don't throw them in jail because they decided not to murder for the wrong reasons.

> The Chamber issued warrants of arrest for two individuals, Mr Benjamin Netanyahu and Mr Yoav Gallant, for crimes against humanity and war crimes committed from at least 8 October 2023 until at least 20 May 2024

And things got much worse in the latter part of 2024. Even if the court didn't take into account facts after 20 May 2024, ample evidence already existing by then was already enough to issue the warrants. When it takes more evidence into account I bet more warrants will be issued.

Am I the only one who thinks it's completely justified for leaders of both sides to be wanted for war crimes??

If someone assaults me and I retaliate by injuring their family members then both the assilant and me are both guilty for criminal assault.

Maybe not a perfect analogy but that's what it seems has happened here...

>In his first response to the ICC issuing a warrant for his arrest on allegations of war crimes, Benjamin Netanyahu’s office has described the ruling as “absurd and false lies” and said the decision is “antisemitic.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/nov/21/internati...

If Netanyahu and Gallant really think they are innocent, and the allegations are absurd and false, they should cooperate with the ICC. Have your day in court and show how absurd the accusations are. If you're not willing to do that, it seems reasonable for the public to draw a proverbial negative inference.

I doubt there will be actual arrests, but there will be and there are already consequences. I just saw France and Netherlands announced they will obey the warrants, thus Netanyahu can no longer travel there. Presumably the whole of EU is off limits (I am unaware which countries recognize the court).

The HN title says "and Hamas officials," but this appears nowhere in the article.

Article is pretty light on the details of the Hamas officials. I wonder if they’ll show up to their day in court.

According to the BBC:

> A warrant was also issued for [Hamas military commander] Mohammed Deif, although the Israeli military has said he was killed in an air strike in Gaza in July.

[0] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly2exvx944o

Reading the comments in this thread and reflecting on history a bit, the thought that comes to mind is that this is less a trial for the defendants and more a trial of the ICC and more broadly international institutions and their true independence, effectiveness and ultimately, relevance.

When was the last time a head of state was arrested by the ICC?

Wow, this took a long time to come after the application for the warrants. 185 days compared to 23 days for Putin's arrest warrant — but then again, one was against the wishes of the USA and the west while the other was at their behest.

A whole cladde of people here who collectively decided that the politics of the outside and the ugly that came from it does not matter anymore, specialising in the interior design of society with the most horrid weapon being a social ostracizing. The idea that building could pancake under artillery fire from the vacuum just is not part of reality and now papertiger hissy fits from the windows .

Title doesn’t mention any hamas official

Netanyahu I'm not surprised, but Gallant?

EDIT: Asking genuinely on Gallant all I know is he was minister of defence and had a felling out with Netanyahu.

As a European, I find the reactions from the US politicians as related in this Al-Jazeera article quite choking : https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/11/21/how-us-politicians...

But maybe biased though. Anyone would have a link to some more nuanced statements with officials who do not sounds just like thugs?

If Netanyahu and Gallant declared as war criminals, does it also mean whoever helped them during the 2024 is complicit?

Wondering what happens to so many Western leaders who supported Netanyahu unconditionally.

Hopefully he gets arrested that would fulfill me with joy and laughter. But realistically nobody was and probably will be able to humble Netanyahu, he is a above the ladder psychopath.

dang,

Any strange upvote/downvote activity going on in this thread?

Watching my own replies votes going up and down, makes me think of the "THERE WAS A FIREFIGHT!" GIF: https://tenor.com/search/there-was-a-fire-fight-gifs

E.g. Going to 2 then down to 0, back up, back down and stabilizing again at 0; of course sophisticated coordinated activity will pace itself, even if across real users, as to not "waste their ammo" or be blatantly obvious; makes me wonder if there have been any studies analyzing this.. anywho. Back to life.

This shouldn't be flagged.

This leads to a bit of a conundrum for the Netherlands. It is the home of the ICC and officially a big sponsor of international justice. But also the right wing government has a hard on for Israel. I don't think that our esteemed ancestors ever envisioned white people to end up in court...

The leader of the PVV (biggest political party) is going to visit colonial settlers in Israël.

Many immigrants hate Israel.

Official state policy is a two state solution.

The relocation of the Dutch embassy to Jerusalem.

You could make a Netflix TV show about this. May we all live interesting times!

I really don't think this belongs on the front page. It is a highly divisive political issue with strong radicalisation at the edges of any discourse on it.

I have my own strong opinions on it, but arguing it does not in my opinon belong on the front page here.

There are plenty of places you can go and have this discussion in as heated of a version as you prefer.

This does not belong on hacker news

Not super meaningful in reality - any country looking to arrest either man should tread carefully.

The American Service-Members' Protection Act authorizes the President of the United States to use "all means necessary and appropriate to bring about the release of any U.S. or allied personnel being detained or imprisoned by, on behalf of, or at the request of the International Criminal Court".

Israel is listed in the act as covered. Any means explicitly includes lethal force, which is why the act is nicknamed the "Invade the Hague" act.

What is the point of the ICC? Russia doesn't recognize it, Israel doesn't recognize it and even the United States doesn't recognize it. I am confused at what these warrants even mean.

This will not amount to anything, but it's nice to know we aren't all crazy or anti-semitic for thinking the Israeli state has been acting very poorly in regards to the State of Palestine. Feels a little bit like trying to get organized crime on tax evasion.

How is this 'flagged'?

Rightfully so, their intentions and actions which have matched, have been clear for the last year. Hopefully the rest of the international community including governments will finally stand together and call them out for the crimes they have been committing. This is hopefully a step to removing arms sales to Israel as well from many countries.

I support these warrants.

I m afraid this fruitless pursuit will distract from the effort to stop the cleansing, which has to be diplomatic and international

This is exciting. Is there precedence for this? What should we expect?

I don’t get why Israel waged war on Gaza instead of just going for the guy who ordered the attack. Any thoughts?

Have they issued any warrants for Hamas leaders for the 7 October Hamas-led attack on Israel?

Isolating Netanyahu like this will only lead to a hardening of the Israeli position because he now truly has nothing to lose