HN Reader

From lttlabs:

> The inability for most docks to support the Switch 2 may not be malicious from Nintendo. It might just be a poor or lazy implementation of the USB-C specification

From the verge [0], 2 months ago:

> When I analyze the conversation between the Nintendo Switch 2 and its dock, I can see the two devices begin speaking in Nintendo’s own flavor of “vendor defined” language early in the conversation, before they sign off on any video output. And then, seemingly before the dock confirms that it’s engaged video-out, they send over 30 proprietary “unstructured” messages to one another.

> […]

> According to Antank, which says it checked with its chip supplier, that hexadecimal string “is indeed the current key being used by Nintendo.” My other sources are less sure.

I'm pretty sure lttl's conclusion is plain wrong. It is not JUST lazy USB-C implementation, but a purposefully designed special proprietary protocol on top of USB-C

[0] https://www.theverge.com/report/695915/switch-2-usb-c-third-...

They put up a video the other day with the summary of this testing, but it’s cool that the full table is now available.

I have a different random 5-letter company name version of this one [0] (the one I bought [1]) that LTT tested. I was nervous after remembering stories about Switch 1 “USB-C” shenanigans but at $28 (vs $124 for the original dock) I decided to roll the dice.

As far as working as a replacement dock for the original, it does the job very nicely while being smaller and easier to use overall (IMHO). At $28/ea I can afford to have a dock on every TV I would even consider playing my Switch on at less than the cost of 1 official dock.

[0] https://antank.net/products/s3-max

[1] https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0FCF8PV2H

The LTT video was painful to watch. I don’t know much about USB or USB-PD, but it was clear they didn’t either. It felt like they were just rambling with some vaguely technical jargon, with no actual understanding.

Interesting. I saw some of their video about this the other day. The video gives the impression that Nintendo is intentionally not supporting external monitors that aren’t the official switch dock.

But the conclusion on this article seems to lean more towards that it could be a mistake or bug. I guess that might be the case - didn’t they screw up USB-C on the switch 1? I know it’s an incredibly complex standard.

I guess the only way to know if it’s intentional or a bug, is if Nintendo updates the switch to fix it. As Linus said in his video, the Nintendo USB isn’t very “universal”.

> EPR even supports up to 240 W! Plenty of power for any device you'd reasonably power with USB-C.

I feel (or rather hope) we'll see more than that at some point. Being able to replace device-specific wall adapters would be a huge win. This has largely already happened for everything that needs 10 watts or less, but between that and things that actually need a lot of power (i.e. kilowatts, not watts) and/or benefit from AC (mostly motors), there's still an annoying valley of power bricks.

I especially hate the type that's hard-wired to the power plug that blocks 1-2 other outlets due to its bulk and inevitably gets lost during a move or trip to storage and back.

Some labels/descriptions could use a bit more polish. For example in test 8 "Averages 15 W delivered to the Switch at maximum." - I kinda see what they mean, but that's a very awkward way to phrase it. The maximum is over 20W. There's a few spikes that go over. I guess that's the maximum for a moving average? For their labs, they could be more precise.

They did this to micro sd cards on the first switch. Looks like they found another way. Nintendo isn’t customer friendly. Gone are the days of the N64 and gone are the days of Nintendo pushing the boundaries of fun and entertainment.

Now, they make underpowered handhelds for kids with proprietary dongles like Apple in hopes of trapping their customers to their platform.

No thanks.

> "The Nintendo Switch 2 only ever charges at a maximum of 15 W(as far as I can tell)."

This is already higher than stated in legal EU-compliance documents [0], where the PD-charger is required to not provide more than 12W "in order to achieve the maximum charging speed"

Also interesting[0]: "TV mode requires output power of 54 watts. This is higher than the power requirements for charging given above. This product supports USB PD fast charging and is capable of being recharged by means of wired charging at voltages up to 15 volts"

According to this, the device will obviously only use the 20V/3A mode (=60 watts) for TV mode, and will not utilize it for charging. Whereas the provided charger (NGN-01) also supports a 15V USB-PD mode which MAY be used for charging.

I assume the device will request max. 15V/1A for charging then, adding up to 15W (not sure why they state the charger should not support "more than 12W"). However, I guess at 15V the majority of power in this state is going to the device and not the battery (they only have a single battery-cell which should be charged with 5V. If they want to charge the battery, they could also request 5V/3A from the charger)...

[0] https://www.nintendo.com/eu/media/downloads/support_1/ninten...

Didn't know LTT's labs was already running.

I'll be curious to see how their testing and data compares to gamersnexus testing and what their first catching a manufacturer's lies event will be.

For consoles, it was actually the original Xbox that started this trend, using a proprietary physical connector, but with a mostly standard usb protocol, for no other purpose than to be consumer hostile. Physical hacks was of course rapidly found in this case to adapt it to be standard compliant.

Then again, with xbox360/kinect, the camera was using the usb procotol, but microsoft prevented it from working with pcs in windows. Instead you had to buy a several times more expensive "pc" version, that had the same specs, except for having the malicious compliance tech was removed.

I guess nintendo learned from this.

"Test 5: DR_SWAP always rejected"

That means the monitor tries to change its own role from USB host (which it defaulted to because it's the power source) to USB gadget. And the Switch rejects the request because it sees itself as the USB gadget (for example to exchange data when you connect it to a PC).

The article itself also says "Our monitoring of the interactions with the USB-C monitor shows that the negotiation does not even get to the point of the Vendor Defined Messages(VDM)" so I see no hint of foul play by Nintendo. (And why would they? They are not in the business of selling USB monitors.)

My guess would be that the connection failure is due to a firmware bug in the monitor. But I am also heavily biased here because my last Asus screen had A LOT of firmware issues.

Back in COVID times, when I had all the time in the world, my Switch got bricked after I charged it using my laptop charger. Nintendo refused to honor its warranty, citing some mumbo jumbo about proprietary USB-C hardware. Fortunately, we have pretty good consumer protection laws here in Australia By the end of an entire two month saga, they sent me a brand new Switch.

I always did think it was odd that a USB-C cable that wasnt Nintendo could break my Switch.

I own a Switch 1, and the other day I wanted to play on the train, but the battery was low. I figured "no problem, I can connect it to my laptop and let it charge off is battery".

Nope. The MacBook Pro started charging off the Switch instead.

I guess hardware vendors are allowed to make USBC devices that goes outside the USBC specs? Although this seems to be within the USBC spec?

Would be interesting if future hardware standards would not allow to be licensed as "within standard" if they break a few rules.

I could see some hardware vendors using their own implementation of a standard just to fool customers into believing it supports a standard while there are exceptions.

Isn't that what happened to bluetooth?

I am not an apple user, but isn't apple also abusing hardware standards to encourage clients to buy its products?

Interestingly, there don't seem to be limitations the other way around. I saw a video of someone running a USB-C extension cable into the dock and using that to hook up a Steam Deck to it. It seemed to be fully capable and interestingly even exposed VRR, something that the Switch 2 itself gives you no option for when docked.

So, as there are a couple of docks coming out that work with Switch 2 and have apparently reverse engineered the protocol... I wonder if some company could make a small dongle that just sits between the switch and my monitor, or my USB-C docking station, and fixes the communication.

For a DIY solution, protocol wise it doesn't seem too complicated, but electronically USB-C or HDMI is out of reach for most hobbyists. And I assume most USB-C interface chips you can get aren't programmable to the degree neccessary...

“* The Nintendo Switch 2 dock will request 3 A at 20 V from the point of connection, whether it is planning to use that power or not. * This is in contrast to the Antank dock which will request additional power only when the Switch 2 is turned on and requires additional power. Arguably a better 'citizen' of the USB-C PD specification, potentially bringing your electricity bill down by a few cents”

Why would this bring your power bill down? Isn’t that always going to be calculated on the basis of kWh actually drawn?

At such times I wish the USB consortium would flex their muscles. A high profile case that maliciously breaks interoperability.

I was hoping this site was going to be a list of common chargers that worked with the Switch 2.

I mean, we are already at the point where you have to put a colored tape on all your usb plugs and sockets to know which ones are compatible and which ones will brick your devices. Maybe its time to drop the "universal" aspect and go back to propietary ports?

for me buying switch 2 is like giving a key to my front door to nintendos lawyers

With the behaviour Nintendo has been 'in the last few years' - I no longer will purchase Nintendo consoles.

We purchased a Switch and the kids have enjoyed many games on it. After reading other comments on here, I am surprised my Switch has not been bricked - and I am not doing anything dodgy at all.

As for the Switch 2. I was showing the announcement videos with the kids - they did not look excited for it. As for me, I was smirking when they were not revealing the price of the console and games. I knew something was up. Within hours there were angry youtube channels blasting their prices.

I am not even getting into Nintendo's legal behaviours over ROMs, youtube channels, or games like Palworld.

"Oh.. that thing you do in this game... Yeah... we have a patent for that!"

Of course, every game Nintendo creates are completely new ideas. Sure, I give Nintendo credit with their involvement in video game history - but I am sure "new features" in Mario Kart World are inspired from other games..... but if you do something Nintendo consider is their idea (especially patented) - they will throw money at you *towards their legal department*

Nintendo are not a family-based games company. They lost that title some time, now. Unless they really change their ways, I wont buy Nintendo again. I do not support their practices. Sure we might not have Mario Kart World or Zelda or other Nintendo specific titles - but a decent PC have many, many great games of the last 30 years - and they will run faster, smoother, etc.

This Dock <--> USB-C drama is just laughable.

Just one more reason not to buy a Switch 2. Seriously, Nintendo has become worse than Apple when it comes to treating their customers. I own hundreds of Nintendo games and every console they ever made, sometimes in multiples. But when I saw of all the shit they were trying to pull with the Switch 2 I decided I was done with that company for good.

Hmm - I use a switch pro controller USB C -C cable to charge my Pixel 8 sometimes, and I notice that the phone often starts and stops charging while plugged in. Maybe there's some extra hardware in that cable...

I tried to use a USB-C HDMI dongle I had. But I assumed it was because the switch 2 was looking for something that could deliver enough power and actively cool it, like the first party dock does.

So what's the best portable emulation device that connects to HDMI too?

Woah, Lttlabs on hacker news front page!

I don't think it's a coincidence that both Switch 1 and Switch 2's usb-c compliance is a shambling wreck. It's pretty clear to me it's a good way to sow doubt and disability in the industry of third-party docks while maintaining perfect plausible deniability.