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Why is it inappropriate to be outraged that international humanitarian laws are actively being violated by Israel, in Gaza? Can someone help me understand?

I actually consider the pager attack to be legal. There's obviously criticism of it, but I'm fairly sure you're allowed to do this kind of thing by laws of war.

Obviously this creates a huge problem for pretty much everyone though, since we can imagine that our ordinary consumer products from all sorts countries could similarly explode if we ended up at war with the manufacturers.

All: before commenting here, please verify that you're feeling something different—quite different—from anger and a desire to fight this war. That is not what HN is for, and destroys what it is for.

This site is for curious, thoughtful, respectful, and kind interaction—most of all with those you may disagree with, regardless of how bad they are or you feel they are.

If that's not possible, it's ok not to post. We'd rather have a thread with no comments than a thread with aggressive comments, let alone nationalistic or religious flamewar. There is far too much aggression in the thread below, which is is understandable, but please don't add more. It provides a fleeting sensation of relief, but then it just makes everything worse.

Note this, from https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html: "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."

Interestingly just nine days ago someone here shared a link to the US's Law of War manual for military personnel. It's pretty good for what it is. Since countries base this stuff on the same international treaties they've all signed, it's a guide to Israel's conduct during war (or just about anyone's) as well as the US's.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46147605

https://media.defense.gov/2023/Jul/31/2003271432/-1/-1/0/DOD...

The question of whether what Israel did with the pagers was legal is not really controversial, or rather, it's not unclear what the law is. Find out the exciting answer in 6.12.4.8 Booby-Traps and Other Devices in the Form of Apparently Harmless Portable Objects Specifically Designed to Explode. (spoiler alert: of course what they did is illegal)

In case you were wondering what the big deal was the other day about the US bombing shipwrecked "narco terrorists" there's 7.3 RESPECT AND PROTECTION OF THE WOUNDED, SICK, AND SHIPWRECKED.

So, what exactly did Palantir provide? I'm staying out of commenting whether or not this was legal/justified and asking strictly what service this was that was sold.

Is this like, live location information provided from social media/carriers/etc? Is it AI guessing who might be a target based on collected data?

EDIT: I ask because this sort of claim could just be marketing on Panantir's end and the quotes and this post never actually explained what it was other than saying their software was used.

The scale of these terrorist attacks seems to be lost by some in the comments here.

Here’s a documentary showing the extent, including all of the undeniable civilians that were injured or killed: https://youtu.be/2mqqDTIs4vE

This substack doesn't support the claim at all it just quotes a book that makes the claim. The headline is basically as informative as the whole article. Trash content only useful for riling people up.

There are a few different angles to this.

1. If any other state had done this, we'd be correctly calling this a terrorist attack and there wouldn't be any question about it; and

2. Palantir was a partner in developing several AI systems used for targeting missile strikes in Gaza. Collectively these tend to be called Lavender [1][2]. Another of these systems is called "Where's Daddy". What does it do? It targets alleged militants at home so their families with be collateral damage [3]; and

3. These systems could not exist without the labor of the humans who create them so it raises questions about the ethics of everything we do as software engineers and tech people. This is not a new debate. For example, there were debates about who should be culpable for the German death machine in WW2. Guards at the camp? Absolutely. Civilians at IG Farben who are making Zyklon-B? Do they know what it's being used for? Do they have any choice in the matter?

My personal opinion is that anyone continuing to work for Palantir can no longer plead ignorance. You're actively contributing to profiting from killing, starving and torturing civilians. Do with that what you will. In a just world, you'd have to answer for your actions at The Hague or Nuremberg 2.0, ultimately.

[1]: https://www.business-humanrights.org/es/%C3%BAltimas-noticia...

[2]: https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/

[3]: https://www.businessinsider.com/israel-ai-system-wheres-dadd...

For those curious, you can find videos of what Palantir Gotham is on YouTube. It might help you be more informed before you post here.

> Palantir ended up having to rent a second-floor building that housed its Tel Aviv office, to accommodate the intelligence analysts who needed tutorials

Has anyone here tried using their software? It's salesforce-level fucked. They did a great job spewing lofty concepts, with their ontologies and their kinetic layers, but in the end it all ends up being a giant wormy ERP. There might be one good idea in there (articulating the schemas and transformations in separate layers) but overall it's a perfect vibe match for orwellian bureaucracies.

“The tech was used” but how, specifically, in regards to Operation Grim Reaper? The implication is that it was used to select targets but if that it true then does that mean there are still unexploded pagers in use?

This conversation already has comments on one side flagged to invisibility. If you are going to allow these conversations, but only allow one side, then Hacker News is not about discussion but about what?

Palantir is just 'CIA as a service'.

Isnt this just a very effective ad for Palantir? Anyone considering Palantir is of the opinion Pager operation was super successful.

If this happened to us would we invade Iraq again?

I am in awe of the opinions in this thread. Really.

If Israel, unprovoked, randomly carried out this attack it would be one thing. But:

1. Hezbollah had been continuously, deliberately firing rockets at civilians since October 8th, 2023 displacing tens of thousands and killing multiple civilians including 12 children in a playground in Majdal Shams.

2. Hezbollah embeds itself and fires from within civilian population in Lebanon

3. Hezbollah leadership had stated that they intend to escalate their attacks including a ground invasion of Israel

I think everyone in this thread criticizing this operation needs to first explain what they would have Israel do in this situation.

Because if you think Israel should retaliate against Hezbollah at all, please explain how you, in Israel's shoes, would achieve a comparable result with fewer civilian casualties.

"please verify that you're feeling something different—quite different—from anger and a desire to fight this war."

Um, why is it inappropriate to be outraged that international humanitarian lwas are actively being violated by Israel, in Gaza?

This reads like an ad for the geriatrics in power. They don't even mention what the hell they contributed but did mention that whatever it was was "AI powered" rofl.

This seems fitting:

> Yet what is the result, the gain to humanity, of this wonderfully regulated society which has been built solely to make life richer? Millions are on the verge of starvation, hundreds of thousands are spending their lives in producing instruments for the destruction of human life, and millions again are wasting their existence in a dull tragedy of monotony. In every great industrial centre where wealth is most plentifully produced, there is poverty and want. In the rich town where no production is carried on, there is plenty and enjoyment. He who labours hard or produces wealth is in poverty, he who lives in idleness is rich. When the warehouses are full, there is want and hunger. Those without food are forbidden to produce because the demand is already supplied. [0]

I highlighted the part that relates to Palantir and most everyone on here reading HN (except you, of course, you're special :))

Which is to say this is nothing new and discussing the minutia of did this specific company do this specific thing when the system that makes this inevitable remains unaddressed is missing the point.

Oh well, politics for 99% of people seems to amount to gossip. Did you hear what X said/did? Oh my god, I can't believe it, etc, etc.

[0] https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/george-barrett-the-a...

HN let this one fall through the cracks I guess. Usually this article would get flagged in under 10 minutes of being up.

It was one of the greatest acts of deception in history. Absolute genius. Even at our peak we never did anything comparable.

It’s like blowing up every single member of the gestapo simultaneously. The resistance could only have dreamed of such a mission.

Yeah sure. Seems like a big leap from "they use Palintir's software" to implying that it was somehow important for this attack.

Also did they really call it Operation Grim Beeper? Hilarious if true (but I suspect not given how codenames are meant to work).

Back when Google's motto was "Do no evil" we used to joke about Palantir embracing the opposite ethos.

I’ve said this before and cannot be said enough. Palantir is a data platform. I think they optimize for knowledge graphs (ontology). It has several uses. It’s seems to be fashionable to blame Palantir these days. But then wouldn’t you also blame other things - Java and database open source, Python, Linux foundation, etc. for all this.

I think people just want to blame without analyzing what else could be blamed to. Really it’s most of the free software community too.

Disclaimer: I don’t consider what Israel did unlawful. They were under attack by hezb and Hamas. They were within rights to retaliate. And no, hezb and Hamas don’t care about civilian casualties.

I thought this was old news. I remember commenting on this almost a year ago?

Anyways, it's war against a known terrorist group.

One of the most sucessful integelligence operations ever, absolutely brilliant. And the brilliance in my opinion is that the targeting was not your regular Hizbollah terrorists but only higher ranking members the one who were given the beepers. So basically cutting the head of the snake.

I doubt Palantir had any involvement, just trying to get some credit. The operation to attack the supply chain was started long before Palantir had grown and could offer something.

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